home

Monday News and Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 03:45:16 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

President Obama just held a news conference on ISIS. I only caught the last 10 minutes. He said we would continue what we've been doing, and that we can't defeat ISIS militarily, we have to defeat their ideology.

Update: The part of his speech I missed: "We will do more to train and equip the moderate opposition in Syria." I think that's a waste of resources -- there is no "moderate" opposition.

In Iraq news, the Iraqi military dropped a bomb by mistake on Baghdad, killing and wounding civilians. Iraq says its Russian fighter jet malfunctioned, releasing the bomb.

[More...]

The South Carolina Senate voted today to take down the Confederate flag.

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev has filed a motion for new trial. It's a "placeholder" motion and does not contain specifics.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Egypt Bans Reporters' Use Of ISIS Terminology | New Report on Rising Heroin Use and Deaths >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Monday News and Open Thread | 209 comments (209 topical)
    The Europeans, particularly (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 04:42:23 PM EST
    Mrs. Merkel, seem to be trapped in amber.  While the financial  crisis of Greece now presents no good solution, there are less bad ones.  But, the European financial wizards are set on punishing the "predatory borrowers" of Greece.   And, they do not like the Greek government.

    Greece has had to meet debt commitments even though its economy is in a depression--not the best of times for more austerity.  In Euro zone's best interests, steps need to be taken to get Greece back on track.  

    The bailout creditors should make the debt more manageable, spreading out re-payment as well as providing more debt relief.

    The economics and the politics are aligned--forcing Greece into a position that prompts a rise in extremists (with over 25 percent unemployment), is not going to pay the creditors.  Stable economies in Europe are also of interest to the US--not a bright idea to wait and see what happens, Although  no doubt Congress will be happy to provide military assistance should that be useful (e.g. Ukraine).

    My thoughts, from a previous Open Thread: (none / 0) (#7)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 05:46:57 PM EST
    Paul Krugman, who's clearly aligned himself with the Greek people in their confrontation with "The Troika" (the IMF, European Commission and European Central Bank), likens Angela Merkel, et al., to a medieval doctor who demands that his patients acquiesce to being bled repeatedly, regardless of current conditions and circumstances, and heedless of the potential adverse consequences:

    "[T]the campaign of bullying -- the attempt to terrify Greeks by cutting off bank financing and threatening general chaos, all with the almost open goal of pushing the current leftist government out of office -- was a shameful moment in a Europe that claims to believe in democratic principles. It would have set a terrible precedent if that campaign had succeeded, even if the creditors were making sense.

    "What's more, they weren't. The truth is that Europe's self-styled technocrats are like medieval doctors who insisted on bleeding their patients -- and when their treatment made the patients sicker, demanded even more bleeding. A 'yes' vote in Greece would have condemned the country to years more of suffering under policies that haven't worked and in fact, given the arithmetic, can't work: austerity probably shrinks the economy faster than it reduces debt, so that all the suffering serves no purpose. The landslide victory of the 'no' side offers at least a chance for an escape from this trap."

    I agree with Krugman on this one. The tough austerity measures adopted by Greece thus far at the EU's behest, which were supposedly intended to spur its economic reform and recovery, have instead mired that country in its eighth consecutive year of economic contraction, one which is fast approaching free fall. The Greek economy shrank by 23% between 2008 and 2014, and anemic or no economic growth has been projected for 2015. And the country's public workforce has shrunk correspondingly by 30% during that same period.

    Unemployment in Greece more than tripled in the subsequent five-year period following the first implementation of austerity measures in 2007-08, rising from 7.7% in 2008 to 24.3% in 2012, and the nation's long-term unemployment reached 14.4%. And in a country where access to medical care is linked directly to one's employment, the austerity regime imposed upon the Greek people by their creditors has left nearly one million of the country's 11.2 million citizens with no access to healthcare whatsoever.

    Indeed, the startling collapse of the once-admired Greek public health system, which is entirely due to a lack of requisite funding, has created a devastating domestic health care crisis of rather tragic proportions. Rates for infant mortality, HIV infection and suicide have soared. Even malaria, once all but eradicated in Greece thanks to the public health sector, has since made a startling rebound.

    Clearly, there is little if any likelihood that a small nation like Greece will ever be able to repay its enormous $313 billion debt to its foreign creditors. And to a great extent, those creditors themselves are responsible for having encouraged the profligate spending policies which led to Greece's massive indebtedness in the first place. Debt relief has to be a real and substantive part of any economic aid package to that stricken country.

    To insist otherwise, and instead demand that the Greeks implement even more draconian austerity measures, as Chancellor Merkel and her allies are doing here, is at once morally reprehensible, fiscally irresponsible and politically reckless. Is she soon going to peddle the same snake oil to the much larger countries of Spain and Italy, whose own economic recoveries have been hampered -- if not hamstrung -- by the fiscal austerity bandwagon that's still all the rage in conservative financial circles?

    Because despite what its advocates are claiming, there is very strong evidence that these austerity-based policies have been entirely counterproductive to conservatives' own publicly stated goals of restoring economic vitality in the wake of the 2008-09 economic recession. While financial institutions which precipitated that severe economic downturn with their own reckless and misleading banking practices were bailed out, it's been citizens themselves who've taken it on the chin, having had to absorb the resultant costs of those bailouts.

    More importantly, we need to remember that it really wasn't all that long ago when Europe was a seething caldron of conflicting nationalist ambitions, which produced the sort of destructive rivalries that twice plunged the world into catastrophic world wars during the three decades between 1914 and 1945, and which resulted in nearly 80 million people losing their lives.

    And in that regard, we should further realize that it was the insanely punitive fiscal policies imposed upon the German Weimar Republic by the Allies in the wake of the First World War, which eventually prompted the political ascendancy of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis, who quite simply availed themselves of the political opportunities presented to them by the Great Depression, the effects of which had hit Germany particularly hard.

    Politics and economics are not mutually exclusive social disciplines, because working class resentments and nationalist fervor have shown a remarkable tendency throughout history to become intertwined and take firm root during times of economic distress, dislocation and hardship.

    NATO and the European Union, borne from the ash heaps of that 30-year disaster, offered Europeans of all nationalities a real opportunity to move beyond the often petty but entirely deadly squabbles that have plagued their history, and into a more enlightened era.

    It would be a shame to see that this pan-European and trans-Atlantic alliance collapse, due primarily to the willingness of Germany, far and away the EU's largest and most prosperous member, to once again throw its weight around the continent, much as it has in times past.

    All this does is reaffirm for many European skeptics -- whose numbers included more than a few former East Germans -- the very real fears which were first expressed by them 25 years ago, when they publicly doubted the conventional wisdom of allowing for Anschluss, the reunification of the German Democratic Republic (East) and the Federal Republic of Germany (West), in the wake of the Warsaw Pact's collapse.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    As long as we are talking about Germany (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by caseyOR on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 06:14:41 PM EST
    and war debt, let us not forget the enormous amount of German debt that was forgiven following WWII. Greece, by the way, was one of those countries who forgave German debt from the war. Perhaps Germany should repay that money now.

    As Thomas Piety said in an interview In Die Zeit:


    ZEIT: But we Germans have already reckoned with our own history.

    Piketty: But not when it comes to repaying debts! Germany's past, in this respect, should be of great significance to today's Germans. Look at the history of national debt: Great Britain, Germany, and France were all once in the situation of today's Greece, and in fact had been far more indebted. The first lesson that we can take from the history of government debt is that we are not facing a brand new problem. There have been many ways to repay debts, and not just one, which is what Berlin and Paris would have the Greeks believe.

    "Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations."

    A larger excerpt from this interview can be found at Digby's place.

    Parent

    That's true. (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 06:52:59 PM EST
    Under President Truman's Marshall Plan, NATO countries at the 1953 London Conference agreed to forgive 50% of Germany's outstanding debts, with the rest was restructured so that the country could repay it over a much longer period of time. In fact, those debts were still being paid off as of a decade ago.

    Even Greece, which saw its pre-World war II population reduced by 8% due to the April 1941 German invasion and subsequent three-year occupation, forgave 50% of the debt Germany owed that country.

    What was good for Germany in 1953, ought to be good for Greece in 2015.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    More on the rise of Germany under Ms. Merkel: (none / 0) (#28)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:36:16 AM EST
    Wall Street Journal | July 6, 2015
    Greek Crisis Shows How Germany's Power Polarizes Europe - "Under the glass Reichstag dome in Germany's parliament last week, left-wing opposition leader Gregor Gysi lit into Chancellor Angela Merkel for saddling Greece with a staggering unemployment rate, devastating wage cuts, and 'soup kitchens upon soup kitchens.' The chancellor, sitting a few steps away with a blank expression on her face, scrolled through her smartphone. Ms. Merkel's power after a decade in office has become seemingly untouchable, both within Germany and across Europe. But with the 'no' vote in Sunday's Greek referendum on bailout terms posing the biggest challenge yet to decades of European integration, risks to the European project resulting from Germany's rise as the Continent's most powerful country are becoming clear."

    Parent
    The NYTimes says.... (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by lentinel on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:39:18 PM EST
    Challenging Bernie Sanders could elevate his candidacy, but the current path requires Hillary Rodham Clinton to put faith in caucusgoers who once jilted her.

    I dunno, but I think if the Times were describing what happened to, say, Howard Dean, they would say  he had been "abandoned" by caucusgoers, not "jilted".

    Just my two cents.

    Insanity (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 01:21:15 PM EST
    We all know what Einstein said about it.

    "Heroin use in the United States increased 63 percent from 2002 through 2013. This increase occurred among a broad range of demographics, including men and women, most age groups, and all income levels," the CDC says in its report, attributing much of the increase to users who started abusing prescription painkillers and then moved on to heroin.

    The reasons are complicated -- drug abuse overall is up, and more people are using prescription painkillers. Heroin is a cheap and more easily available alternative to these prescription drugs for people who become addicted to them.

    "They are addicted to prescription opiates because they are essentially the same chemical with the same effect on the brain as heroin," Frieden told a news conference. "Heroin costs roughly 5 times less than prescription opiates on the street."

    Users say they move to heroin after they get addicted to prescription drugs - often during legitimate use for a medical condition - and then their supply dries up.

    CDC said states can do a lot more to help fight heroin abuse.
    "Specifically, a focus on reducing opioid pain reliever abuse is needed," it said.
    LINK

    So they crack down on pain killers and heroin use skyrockets, and the plan is to 'reduce pain reliever abuse', which means in some way, making less pills available, aka reducing the supply.

    It's shameful that their vision is so narrow they actually believe they can reduce drug use in the United States.  No one seems to care that they are the ones clearing the path to heroin, the cheaper alternative.

    These (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 10:47:38 AM EST
    conservative dimwits on Facebook have been posting these pictures of Hillary with a confederate flag. How many times do they have to be played for a fool by the likes of D'souza before they quit listening? Apparently conservatives and/or republicans have a limitless capacity to be played.

    Here is the Real Pic... (none / 0) (#134)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:03:20 AM EST
    ...and the fake.  LINK

    Even if was real, do they think that is some how going to change the debate.  I have to say it's a great fake in that it is black and white, years ago, and just a tiny section of the flag.

    They should be talking about her pants, OMG.

    Parent

    Those striped bell-bottoms Hillary (none / 0) (#143)
    by caseyOR on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:26:40 AM EST
    is wearing look very much like a pair I had, and wore, in the late '60s. :-)

    Bell-bottoms are a fashion trend i do not miss.

    Parent

    Hey (none / 0) (#147)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:56:46 AM EST
    any old fashion trend we can all make fun of decades later but I have to say that nothing beats the 1980's for bad fashion.

    Parent
    Nah (none / 0) (#159)
    by jbindc on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 01:13:02 PM EST
    The 70's were way, way worse.  At least everyone looked like they had bathed in 80's.

    I saw a comedian once, I think it was Sinbad, who said (paraphrasing here) that the sexual revolution took place in the late 60's/early 70's because the clothes were so ugly, you just needed to get people out of them.

    Parent

    I guess (none / 0) (#162)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 01:29:05 PM EST
    you must have seen a different 1980's than I did. I remember the grunge and punk look becoming popular, horrible granny boots and a ton of bad fashion outside of the Miami Vice look. The 70's were Farrah Fawcett and bell bottoms and hip huggers yes but there were no odious jumpsuits then either like there were in the 1980's.

    For an entire decade I hardly bought any clothes and that was the 1980's and I actually worked in retail part of the decade. And then the knit dresses who the only people that could wear them were either sticks or fat old ladies who wore girdles.

    Parent

    The movie "Working Girl" was on (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 01:41:35 PM EST
    not too long ago, and that was made in 1988; even though we were coming out of the 80's, OMG, the hair and the clothes made me wonder what the fashion gurus were thinking.

    But what I noticed was that the awful hair and the awful clothes were for the so-called working class - the people in positions of power, with money, all looked timelessly, classically, great.  No big hair for Sigourney Weaver's character.  No hideous padded shoulders for her, no way.  No bright blue eyeshadow or flashy jewelry, either.

    Was still a good movie - but it made me glad those days are over!

    Parent

    I Suggest You Watch Ghostbusters (none / 0) (#173)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 02:20:48 PM EST
    No big hair for Sigourney Weaver's character.

    And when you think about all the classic 80's movie like St Elmo's Fire and The Big Chill, lots of big stars is less than flattering styles.

    Parent

    Ghostbusters was 1984 - right in (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 02:37:42 PM EST
    the middle of that decade, and St. Elmo's Fire was 1985, The Big Chill 1983.

    You have to remember the premise of Working Girl, and realize that there needed to be a visual distinction between the working class and the elites, and they did that mostly through fashion, hair, language and makeup.  Oh, and gum-chewing, which none of the elites did, but was part and parcel of the working girl's persona, along with tennis shoes and socks worn for walking to and from the public transportation the working class used - something the elite wouldn't be caught dead doing, or wearing.

    Parent

    I'm with GA... (none / 0) (#175)
    by kdog on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 02:28:39 PM EST
    the 80's were way worse for style than the 70's...in the 70's, you had punk style to offset disco style.  And new wave style makes disco style look pretty spiffy by comparison.  

    Parent
    St.Elmo's (none / 0) (#176)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 02:28:55 PM EST
    fire perfectly shows how horrible fashion was in the 1980's.

    Parent
    "St. Elmo's Fire" also shows ... (none / 0) (#186)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 04:12:31 PM EST
    ... how utterly vapid commercial Hollywood was becoming during Ronald Reagan's "Morning in America" era of the 1980's. Let's face it, some of the popular movies that so many of us loved back then have simply not aged very well, and now appear to us as very dated period pieces.

    And curiously, isn't it funny how those movies all seemed to co-star Emilio Estevez, Ally Sheedy, Molly Ringwald, Judd Nelson, Rob Lowe, Andrew McCarthy, Mare Winningham, Anthony Michael Hall and Demi Moore -- the so-called "Brat Pack" -- in various casting combinations? But I digress here.

    Looking back in obvious hindsight, it's amazing how the casting of mainstream films had regressed from the growing diversity of the 1970s, to once again becoming predominantly white by the mid-'80s.

    Even in television, which still maintained some semblance of racial and ethnic diversity in its offerings, Hollywood sitcoms had shied away from tackling the gritty and contemporary subject matter of the '70s, and were instead embracing rather bland and non-controversial family-oriented fare like "Family Ties," "Different Strokes" and (the now-odious) "The Cosby Show."

    "Morning in America," indeed. It was more like "Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early white."

    ;-)

    Parent

    True (none / 0) (#174)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 02:28:01 PM EST
    If you had the money to buy designer the clothes were not so odious but maybe that was by design. Though I have to tell you Liz Claiborne but out a line of clothes that were lime green and neon yellow and I don't think I ever saw a line take as many markdowns as that one did.

    Parent
    Well, (none / 0) (#182)
    by Reconstructionist on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 03:14:58 PM EST
      fashion involves  personal taste and is influenced by the times.

      In the late  60s and 70s people thought the clothes and hairstyles of 40s through early 60s were bad.

       From my perspective the worst of the 70s was worse than the worst of the 80s, but that's just me. I will add that loud, silly looking clothes, big hair and even leisure suits or shiny disco shirts aren't as off-putting tattoos, piercing and whatever you call those ear hole things-- plus you can get a haircut and a new shirt  any time you want for little money.

    Parent

    They consider a convicted felon (none / 0) (#137)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:11:36 AM EST
    who is also an adulterer a reliable source of facts.

    Parent
    NYC paid (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by KeysDan on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 10:59:19 AM EST
    $330,000 to six Occupy Wall Street protestors for being pepper sprayed without cause.  The incident was captured on video showing Deputy Inspector Anthony Bologna (aka, Tony Baloney) spraying the protestors seated behind orange netting.  The NYPD docked Bologna  10 days vacation for violating department policy.

    NYC settlement (none / 0) (#133)
    by KeysDan on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:03:04 AM EST
    Occupy Wall Street protestors.

    Parent
    And now, for something completely different... (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by Zorba on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 01:43:06 PM EST
    Woo, hoo!
    Twelve jars of cherry jelly made, and a bunch of frozen cherries for pies later (sour cherries).  Our tree.
    The larder continues to grow.
    Will be making dilled green beans in a bit.  Our beans, our dill.
    Also, yesterday I made some broccoli soup to freeze (I leave out the cream, and add it after I defrost the base).  Yes, our broccoli.
    Go, garden!

    Redskins Lose Trademark... (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 02:03:20 PM EST
    ...because, drum roll... it's offensive to Native Americans.

    The Washington Redskins lost their biggest battle yet over their controversial name, after a federal judge upheld a ruling that ordered the removal of the football team's trademark registrations because they were offensive to Native Americans.

    US district judge Gerald Lee on Wednesday agreed with the US Patent and Trademark Office's decision from last year that the trademarks "may disparage" Native Americans. Washington had tried to overturn the appeal board's original ruling by claiming their first amendment rights were being infringed, but Wednesday's decision represents a significant setback for the NFL franchise.

    And where have we heard this before:

    Washington insists "our name represents a tradition, passion and heritage that honors Native Americans" and have so far rejected attempts to change their moniker. Dan Snyder, the team's owner, has vowed that he will never abandon the name, and says a cancellation of its trademarks would taint its brand and lead to billions in lost revenue. Washington says polls show that most fans want to retain the "Redskins" name.

    LINK

    Heritage, the refuge of scoundrels and it generally means white heritage.

    Jeb may have just lost a few million votes (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 06:07:43 PM EST
    How should we grow the US economy? "People should work longer hours"

    Nothing like a little-hippie punching (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jul 09, 2015 at 06:16:35 AM EST
    to enhance ones' credibility as a reasonable, rational, thoughtful centrist.

    yman, i did an advanced Google search (2.00 / 1) (#114)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 08:42:54 PM EST
    and guess what. Your supposed quote:

    "kill all the women and children where the weapons are"

    didn't come up. Which, knowing how you operate, is no surprise. But don't be disappointed.

    I did find this in comment 76.

    If Hamas, or any such, choose to store weapons among women and children then it is they that are responsible for the harm that come to them.

    Stated simply we cannot protect ourselves if we allow our enemies to dictate where we can attack them by placing women and children in harms way.

    If you cannot understand this you have my sympathy.

    Now I have made that comment in various ways numerous times and I stand by it 100%. It is sadly factual and accurate.

    But it has nothing to do with the fact that an illegal immigrant who has been deported some 5 times and with a record of 7 felonies was released because of the immigrant policies of the Obama administration and SF's absolutely stupid policy of welcoming and protecting illegal immigrants.

    They didn't pull the trigger but they put the killer on the street.

    Your searching skills are extremely poor (none / 0) (#132)
    by Yman on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:01:38 AM EST
    And I'd be happy to quote your post where you omitted all your (semi) qualifiers, but our host doesn't approve.

    Parent
    Like I said (1.00 / 1) (#211)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 09, 2015 at 09:14:50 AM EST
    Drugs make you stupid.

    So does thinking hippie-punching (1.00 / 1) (#213)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jul 09, 2015 at 09:29:54 AM EST
    Accomplishes something.

    Donal Trump Tweet (none / 0) (#1)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 04:03:55 PM EST
    #Jeb Bush has to like the Mexican Illegals because he is married to a Mexican woman.

    It has been deleted, but this guy...

    I keep reading that his supporters are basically saying they love the guy because of his business sense and that he says what most people are thinking but are too scared to say in a PC world.

    LINK

    Two things about that (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 04:24:33 PM EST
    its what more people than you think would say privately and Trump is doing the likes of Cruz and Huckabee a huge favore by making them look less crazy by comparison.  Meaning they are not literally howling at the moon.

    In other news beautiful women can't be funny but rich guys can definitely be stupid tools.

    Parent

    Trump really (none / 0) (#5)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 05:10:48 PM EST
    has his hands full trying to make the likes of Cruz and Huckabee look less crazy.  Scott Walker is trying to eat wedding cake and not have to bake it--his sons are "disappointed" in Dad's opposition to the Obergefell ruling, calling for an amendment to the US Constitution.

     Sort of like when Barbara Bush indicated that she was pro-choice to soften George HW Bush's pro-life position (when he became a presidential candidate).   Walker may be able to make this work with his Joni Ernst Iowans, but, then, again, they may fault him for being a bad parent, what with those progressive family values and all.

    Parent

    Trump also got into a twitter war (none / 0) (#31)
    by Yman on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 08:00:41 AM EST
    ... with one of the writers from Modern Family.  Not a good idea to try to take on someone who writes for a living.

    Parent
    They (none / 0) (#4)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 05:05:57 PM EST
    don't even try to hide it any more. 5 unspoken rules for covering Hillary
    The Clinton rules are driven by reporters' and editors' desire to score the ultimate prize in contemporary journalism: the scoop that brings down Hillary Clinton and her family's political empire.
    . What the hell are they teaching in J school these days?

    Is this journalism or big game hunting? "Fk the ethics we are going to bag a black rhino". Like addicts they can't help themselves,

    As a reporter, I get sucked into playing by the Clinton rules. This is what I've seen in my colleagues, and in myself.
    And what political empire is that? (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 01:50:23 PM EST
    The husband that left office 15 years ago?

    Sooo stupid...

    Parent

    No, it's part of new arms deals (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:10:27 PM EST
    I don't think we will sell them fighters.  The fighters they bought from Russia and Belarus were also used

    Parent
    And it Looks Like... (none / 0) (#70)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:35:05 PM EST
    ...they got what they paid for.

    Parent
    started with Nixon (none / 0) (#22)
    by thomas rogan on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:48:13 PM EST
    Every journalist wants to be like Woodward and Bernstein.  This is nothing new.

    Parent
    That was actually journalism (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:58:12 PM EST
    Today's approach is more reminiscent of the Miami Herald and Gary Hart.

    Parent
    And further, Woodward's and Bernstein's ... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:05:39 AM EST
    ... entire investigation was premised upon a very real crime, namely the attempted break-in and bugging of Democratic National Committee HQ at the Watergate Hotel & Office Complex by Nixon's political operatives, whereas the relentless pursuit of Bill and Hillary Clinton has ultimately proved to be nothing more than a 24-year-long snipe hunt.

    Parent
    FYI, your link doesn't work. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:18:50 AM EST
    Jonathan Allen's op-ed column is here: "Confessions of a Clinton reporter: The media's 5 unspoken rules for covering Hillary."

    Parent
    Lee Bright (none / 0) (#6)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 05:18:07 PM EST
    SC state senator. I think this is the same guy that said the people in Charleston who were murdered stood in line and waited to be shot. Great going SC on having this moron as one of your state senators.

    I presume he was one of only 3 no votes (none / 0) (#12)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:04:42 PM EST
    The SC Senate voted 37-3 (with 6 not voting) this afternoon to move the bill along to take down the flag. They will vote again tomorrow and you should expect the outcome to be the same.

    The House will likely take it up on Wednesday.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#16)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:15:52 PM EST
    I never thought the senate would not vote to take it down. It's the house that's always been the big question mark to me.

    Parent
    He is worth watching (none / 0) (#14)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:13:24 PM EST
    if you like Sunday morning money grubbing TV evangelists. He's currently in the wrong business.

    I especially enjoyed "And then Friday night I watch the White House be lit up in the abomination colors"

    He was on a holy roller roll.

    Parent

    What a sad dark world (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:28:25 PM EST
    a person must live in to call rainbow colors "abomination colors"

    Parent
    Change the first letter of abomination. (none / 0) (#81)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:18:54 PM EST
    Same old same old Obama Derangement Syndrome.

    All the explanation you need is summed up in this message, which appeared one day, taped to a pile of tires that some lazy inconsiderate @#*$^@ dumped by the side of the dirt road I live on, sometime last year.

    Parent

    Do You Think... (none / 0) (#84)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:29:46 PM EST
    ...maybe someone else left the note indicating thqat maybe the people who dumped tires suck ?

    Parent
    Sen. Bright managed to link abortion, ISIS and ... (none / 0) (#17)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:25:04 PM EST
    ... same-sex marriage to this attempt to relegate the Confederate flag to the state museum. What a piece of work!

    Parent
    That's what Jim doesn't understand (none / 0) (#29)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 05:26:36 AM EST
    Gay marriage protects us from sharia law coming to this country.

    Parent
    Mondriggian, why are you bringing me (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 08:54:58 AM EST
    into a comment that I have not responded to??

    It is clearly baiting.

    Even worse, it is untrue. I have posted time again that I support gay rights, including marriage.

    So if you want to attack a position I support, fire away. But you are just making things up.

    Parent

    Where did I say you don't support (none / 0) (#33)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 09:03:17 AM EST
    gay marriage?

    Parent
    You are clearly baiting (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 09:44:11 AM EST
    19 minutes after I respond you jump back.

    The question remains. Why have you brought my name into a comment that I haven't responded to??

    I have and do support gay marriage.

    I have noted that CAIR, a Muslim organization that was named an un-indicted co-conspirator by the Feds, opposed an attempt by OK to establish a law blocking Sharia from OK courts. Obviously you don't oppose a law that you don't want implemented.

    By connecting the two you establish a false premise.

    Everyone knows my positions on the two subjects. Please quit picking a fight.

    Parent

    Dear Gawwwwddd! (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Yman on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 12:07:10 PM EST
    Jim complaining about "baiting".

    From the master ...

    Parent

    Pro tip (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by FlJoe on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 12:17:19 PM EST
    When fishing for jabberwocky no bait is needed, they will eagerly impale themselves on any shiny object.

    Parent
    I didn't I needed your (none / 0) (#38)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 09:53:41 AM EST
    permission to mention you, Jim.

    Be sure to mention gay marriage to the jihadi lurking under your bed tonight, and see what happens.

    Parent

    Kill me (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 09:56:09 AM EST


    Parent
    It's the Reason... (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 10:53:10 AM EST
    ...I made a conscious choice years ago to never have children.  If they were my kids, they would be locked in closets on a regular basis.  So instead of going to jail, I just decided I don't want them.

    Parent
    No you don't (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 11:13:18 AM EST
    but you were baiting.

    And you continue.

    Be sure to mention gay marriage to the jihadi lurking under your bed tonight, and see what happens.


    Parent
    If you can't take a joke (none / 0) (#119)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 05:00:27 AM EST
    then you should work in your sel-control.

    Parent
    He made me laugh. (none / 0) (#19)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:30:30 PM EST
    All I could think is he's doing a great job rounding up votes for Hillary because it's all over social media.

    He's deliverance on steroids.

    Parent

    Tiny little short fingers (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:33:18 PM EST
    you know what that means

    Parent
    Extra small gloves? (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 07:53:59 AM EST


    Parent
    You know what they say Pee Wee..... (none / 0) (#41)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 10:01:17 AM EST
    .....big feet, big boots.

           - Cowboy Carl (Lawerence Fishburne)

    Parent

    I liked that show. (none / 0) (#96)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:14:17 PM EST
    I didn't realize Cowboy Curtis was Fishburne until recently, when I heard Terry Gross interview him on Fresh Air (a rebroadcast).

    What a weird little show.  The colors were pumped up, oversaturated, at least in memory.  Going from ordinary shows into PeeWee's playhouse felt like the transition into Toon Town in Roger Rabbit.


    Parent

    He was on at the same time (none / 0) (#112)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 08:40:34 PM EST
    my friend Shirley was Mrs Steve

    Parent
    Over on the imdb message boards, there's (none / 0) (#116)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 09:52:42 PM EST
    a hole in the ocean where she gets discussed.  You might have something to add to that conversation, if you're so inclined.  People love personal stuff.  How did she keep body and soul together when the acting gigs were so far between?  How'd a kid from Brooklyn end up in a Lina Wertmuller film?


    Parent
    I might do that (none / 0) (#122)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 07:02:11 AM EST
    i have a couple of great pics I've considered posting there.  There is no pic of her.  
    I met her through a boyfriend/dealer named Carmine Stipo.  Also an actor.  Her friend from childhood.  Once he and I was watching Seven Beauties at his house and he says, you realize she is speaking Italian with a German accent, not bad for a girl from Broolkyn.

    I've put off doing that because we really did become close and it was hard to discuss.

    Parent

    Cowboy Curtis? (none / 0) (#68)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:15:50 PM EST
    cowboy Conrad?

    Anyway.

    "Short fingered vulgarian" was not about his fingers.

    Parent

    Lee Bright is (none / 0) (#74)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:43:27 PM EST
    a co-chair of the Ted Cruz primary campaign for South Carolina.   Bright was a tea party challenger to Lindsey last go around.  

    Parent
    Lee Bright (none / 0) (#77)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:07:59 PM EST
    every time he opens his mouth he gives Hillary another voter.

    Parent
    Is That Like... (none / 0) (#87)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:40:55 PM EST
    ...every time Mr T 'Pities a Fool', an angel gets their wings ?

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#95)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:13:17 PM EST
    pretty much. LOL. Are there any more gullible people on the face of the earth than conservatives? I've never seen such a large group of people fall for every hoax that comes around.

    Parent
    ".....any more gullible people...... ?" (none / 0) (#109)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 07:47:31 PM EST
    Was watching a Nashville call-in TV program this morning on Channel 5. Guy calls in to sing the praises of the Affordable Care Act. Says a volunteer (a minister, actually) had been going around his neighborhood, knocking on doors, and extolling the virtues of this new program, "The ACA." After hearing about all the benefits a couple hundred families actually signed up. Now, they're so thrilled (some are giving personal stories of chronic illnesses in their families that have gone untreated for years, now being successfully treated) they're running around proselytizing for the ACA, almost in a religious fervor.

    And, after thanking Jesus for finally answering their prayers, the caller ended his call by stating, "Thank God they finally wised up, got rid of that awful "Obamacare" and gave us a program that really works."

    ---------------------------------

    (Just goes to prove what I've been saying for years, "it's all in the marketing.") That slick preacher, saw the need, changed the name, and filled the need.) Gives you a new faith for humanity, not all Southern padres are sleazy money grubbing hucksters.)  

    Well played, Sir. LOL.

    Parent

    Of (none / 0) (#121)
    by FlJoe on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 05:45:41 AM EST
    course they will still vote straight Republican. Proving once again:

    A: There's a sucker born every minute.
    B: Republicans are nothing more then snake-oil salesman      
    C: The Media is less then useless in educating the public on the issues.                    

    Parent

    And, of course, (none / 0) (#142)
    by NYShooter on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:24:32 AM EST
    you are correct. That point has been made quite often. At least, let's be happy they are getting health care.

    And, maybe, just, maybe, hearts & minds will follow.......some day.

    Parent

    Oh, the media's absence (none / 0) (#145)
    by NYShooter on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:33:17 AM EST
    is to be expected, no surprise there.

    My question is, where are the Democrats, and, The President? As we all know, most people don't read The New York Times, or watch Public Broadcasting.

    Madison Avenue can sell us all kinds of useless crap, 99% of which will be in the garbage within a year. But, it seems like selling affordable, life-saving health insurance to those who have never had it before is beyond Mr. Obama's, and the Democrats' capability.

    Parent

    How about (none / 0) (#94)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:13:06 PM EST
    Trump/Bright 2016?    A good Republican ticket, supplanting my yesterday preference: Trump/Christie 2016.  

    Parent
    Bright (none / 0) (#97)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:14:19 PM EST
    is really a better choice than Christie I would think. LOL.

    Parent
    I really love (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 06:11:05 PM EST
    this picture

    Really? (none / 0) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:01:49 PM EST
    this is who we are?  Really?

    LINK

    When Josh Joseph went to visit his friends Darren and Hayli Frank in Spring, Texas, there was no way he could ever have anticipated the kind of hateful actions they would be subjected to as a result. Josh is black, and the Franks are white. No big deal, right?

    Darren Frank owns a Chevy truck valued at $50,000. He parks the truck in his driveway. Always has. And it had never been a problem until his friend Josh came to visit while looking for a job in the area. When the family awoke the morning after Joseph arrived, they found it spray painted with some of the vilest, most hateful things you can possibly imagine, including "n****r lovers" and "KKK."
    Welcome to Murica, Cap'n, ... (none / 0) (#13)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:10:09 PM EST
    ... and the home of real Muricuns. Nathan Bedford Forrest would be so proud.

    Parent
    Say what? (none / 0) (#15)
    by lentinel on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:15:07 PM EST
    Iraq says its Russian fighter jet malfunctioned, releasing the bomb.

    So...The Iraqis are buying fighter jets from...Russia?

    Probably with our tax money.

    Gotta love it.

    Thanks for everything, W.

    Was Russia in the (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 01:52:38 PM EST
    'coalition of the willing'? I guess that explains the willingness.

    Parent
    Site violator. (none / 0) (#26)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:03:26 AM EST
    From France.

    Willie Horton Redux... (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 09:04:22 AM EST
    Get used to this ugly mug y'all, we'll be seeing it in campaign ads for the next 16 months.

    Though I guess there is still time for ISIS to win back the Intercontinental Election 2016 Boogey-Man Championship Belt.  


    I Think Donald... (none / 0) (#35)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 09:19:37 AM EST
    ...is putting republicans in a tight spot with immigration.  It's a tight squeeze to denounce his comments while supporting closing the border.

    He is not doing the GOP any favors in regards to our southern border.  His latest:

    "This is merely one of thousands of similar incidents throughout the United States," Trump said Monday. "In other words, the worst elements in Mexico are being pushed into the United States by the Mexican government."

    The 2016 Republican presidential candidate said that Mexican drug cartels are using immigrants to smuggle heroin, cocaine and other illicit drugs into the United States.

    "The Border Patrol knows this. Likewise, tremendous infectious disease is pouring across the border," Trump continued.

    LINK

    Parent
    For (none / 0) (#36)
    by FlJoe on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 09:32:09 AM EST
    the short term this will be a feather in the Donald's cap and an albatross around the neck of the rest of the Republican candidates. At this time the Republicans wish the whole immigration issue(and Trump) would go away.

    Parent
    I don't know... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 09:58:38 AM EST
    I think all the Republicans will be kicking the immigrant dog plenty, and will be happy to play Willie Horton.

    They just won't be as blunt as Trump, they'll be more careful with their words while basically saying the same tired sh*t in a brand of bland pc Orwellian Newspeak.

    Or better yet for them, let the Citizens United sugar-daddies say it for them while kissing the "good latino" babies on the trail.  

    Parent

    Republicans (none / 0) (#44)
    by FlJoe on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 10:18:18 AM EST
    will never give it up completely, it's just their nature. However, thanks to Trump's fog horn blast, they will have to tune their whistle to a much higher pitch. I agree that they will probably leave much of it to the Dark Money Orchestra.

    Thanks to Trump and Dylann Roof a couple of the Republican's greatest hits have been yanked from the playlist, at least temporarily. Their rabid fans will be disappointed to say the least.

    Their style has been cramped.

    Parent

    Don't forget marriage equality... (none / 0) (#47)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 10:44:19 AM EST
    another lost wedge issue...it's hard out there for divisiveness pimps!

    But I don't put it past 'em to find/exploit new wedges...Democrats too, for that matter.  Ya know Clinton would rather talk about the wedge issues than what her Wall St. buddies have been up to.  It's a much easier road to the White House defending immigrants than banksters and grifters.

    Parent

    Yes, this should cause (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 12:59:14 PM EST
    people to question our immigration policy and the so called sanctuary city policy...

    The 45-year-old Mexican man, whose background of five deportations and seven felony convictions....


    Parent
    but not our gun policy (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by CST on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 01:05:14 PM EST
    anything but that right?

    Parent
    What gun policy? (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 01:26:39 PM EST
    Apparently there are so many they can be found laying on the street, loaded.  

    I wish there were sanctuary cities to escape firearms, never mind the cold long kidnapping arms of ICE!

    Parent

    ICE caught him (1.00 / 1) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 01:58:35 PM EST
    SF let him go.

    The blood and the lawsuit is on their hands. I just wish there could be a criminal charge brought.

    And a nod to CST for trying ton provide cover for SF and the Feds letting this killer loose to kill.

    Parent

    And a nod to you (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:06:15 PM EST
    for making it that much easier for violently unbalanced people in general to get their hands on a gun in this country.

    And yeah, I'm sure you wish there could be a criminal lawsuit brought against two-thirds of the left coast, but there won't be. So deal with it.

    Parent

    Jesus F. Christ (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by CST on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:08:17 PM EST
    Nine black people dead in a church and we can't rethink our gun policy.  Hundreds of kids dead in school shootings and we can't rethink our gun policy.  Tens of thousands of people dead every year in this country but we can't rethink our gun policy.

    1 white woman dies in San Francisco and all of a sudden there is blood on the hands of all Americans who think we shouldn't be tossing all immigrants immediately out the door.  All they asked for was a warrant.

    Parent

    For what it's worth, I think (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:37:39 PM EST
    Jesus' middle initial is "H" - at least that's what my Dad always used to say...

    All kidding aside, for the life of me I do not know why people are acting as if, absent these lawless intruders, America would be a haven of peace, free from crime.  Our "own" criminal justice system routinely lets people go, fails to act on warrants, puts people convicted multiple times of drunk driving back in their cars, sends people with documented history of abuse back to terrorize their spouses/partners, and what do we do?

    Ho-hum, same old/same old, if it bleeds it leads, so what else is new?  We build more prisons, buy more equipment for law enforcement, to little avail.

    But, Lord have mercy, if one of these criminals is here illegally, time to build walls, erect an impenetrable barrier to further encroachment.  Time to round'em up and ship 'em all out.  

    I'm sick of it all, sick of the rank hypocrisy and blatant racism and xenophobia that permeates and saturates the entire immigration discussion.

    [thank you for allowing me to vent...now I just need to avoid like the plague the anticipated BS comments from the resident troll]

    Parent

    You Forgot... (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:01:53 PM EST
    ...how every idiot in the country that wants a gun has 10 of them.

    But now one death makes it OK for a presidential candidate to blather racist non-sense that the facts simply do not support.

    Anyone want to take bets on how many times Jim mentions one murder between now and Nov '16 ?  That is about 450 days, so I am going with 1000.  And I know the lip service he will give the hundreds of others killed by white folks every day, a big fat zero.  I think he is at 5 already.

    And for the record, it is a GD shame that this person was on the streets, that our government can't get it together enough to abide by the rules.  There is no excuse for ICE to not get the required paperwork by the deadline.  

    This was a preventable death.  And its so sad the right is using her death to promote their agenda against brown people.  ICE screwed-up, the idea that a wall is going to ensure people aren't killed is preposterous.  Every border wall that has ever been erected has failed and/or come down.

    Parent

    As Molly Ivins once said, quoting Janet (none / 0) (#92)
    by Zorba on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:03:39 PM EST
    Napolitano:

    Are they insane? As Arizona Gov. Janet Napolitano observes, "Show me a 50-foot wall, and I'll show you a 51-foot ladder."

    Link.

    Boy, I sure miss Molly!

    Parent

    I'm with you Anne (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:09:06 PM EST
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    Can't do anything about gun violence, but immigration...that's about somebody else, not us 'Muricans, so let's go balls to the wall on that.

    Parent

    Yea I know the middle initial is H (none / 0) (#73)
    by CST on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:40:18 PM EST
    In this case the F stood for F*cking.

    I also needed to vent.

    Parent

    Yeah, I got that "F" part... (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:44:54 PM EST
    and I find myself using it more than I would like - pretty sure Jesus doesn't much care for it, either, lol.

    Parent
    You know I don't remember much (2.00 / 2) (#115)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 08:59:08 PM EST
    being written about this.

    The Hartford Distributors shooting was a mass shooting that occurred on August 3, 2010, in Manchester, Connecticut, United States. The location of the crime was a warehouse owned by Hartford Distributors, a beer distribution company. The black gunman, former employee Omar Sheriff Thornton (born April 25, 1976)[1] shot and killed eight white coworkers before turning a gun on himself.

    Link

    So, do you think maybe you should consider your claims before you type??

    And while I don't want to get too technical on you and spoil your rant, no one is saying toss out all immigrants. It is the ILLEGAL immigrants who have been previously deported with felony convictions that we want rounded up and yes....deported.

    It just seems the logical thing to do.

    Parent

    Jim, you may not call people (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 11:48:10 PM EST
    illegal here. Either use another term or comment elsehwere. Comments I see using that term will be deleted.

    Parent
    So Jim's Answer... (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 09:03:07 AM EST
    ...to getting called out about an immigrant killing a white woman is to Google a black workplace shooting involving white coworkers.

    Yeah Jim, you got us.  And it's good to see this isn't about race...

    Parent

    Which is why (none / 0) (#139)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:20:24 AM EST
    he wants more not less confederate flags in the workplace..

    Keeps them bucks in line.

    Parent

    No, that is not correct, ICE did not (5.00 / 5) (#69)
    by Peter G on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:25:55 PM EST
    "catch" him. SF arrested him for a drug crime and refused to hold him longer for ICE to pick him up after the California court system, in the normal course, ruled he was eligible for release under their rules. That's how the "detainer" part of the "sanctuary city" policy works. A U.S. city refuses to hold someone whom a local judge has ruled is eligible under local law for release, on the unsupported say-so of ICE, without federal legal process, that they want to "investigate" the person and may get around to the jail to pick him up in a few days. Federal courts, including in California and Pennsylvania, have held that the local authorities are on sound legal and constitutional ground in adhering to these policies.

    Parent
    So (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:21:21 PM EST
    what do you propose we do about all the white male mass murderers that have been going to town lately? Should we start shipping all the white males out of the country? Or maybe we should just ship the neoconfederates out of the country since they seem to be big motivators of these murderers from Timothy McVeigh to Dylan Roof.

    Parent
    Speaking of Feds Jim... (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by kdog on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 09:25:36 AM EST
    turns out the murder weapon belonged to a federal agent, who reported it stolen from their car a month ago.

    Using your logic, should we ban federal agents from owning firearms to prevent similar tragedies in the future?  

    Parent

    Questioned and answered... (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 01:23:05 PM EST
    on my end...very small number of violent crimes committed by the undocumented who have been in the system vs. untold numbers of people free to pursue life, liberty, and happiness without the threat of state-sanctioned violent kidnapping.  Sanctuary Cities for the win.

    Though I'd much prefer a sanctuary country, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, regardless of papers possessed.

    Parent

    A country that has no borders is not a (2.00 / 2) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:00:56 PM EST
    country.

    And I doubt that the father of the young woman killed would accept your cavalier viewpoint on the collateral damage caused by ICE and SF.

    Parent

    Tell it to the multinationals (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:12:39 PM EST
    and all the tax dodgers and outsourcers. The main funders of the GOP, in other words..

    The powerful abandon ship when it suits them, and the powerless sneak in when they have no choice and nowhere else to go.

    Parent

    I'm not cavalier... (none / 0) (#71)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 02:35:40 PM EST
    about the feds and ICE's damage done to hundreds of thousands of souls per year.  I can't fault SF for trying to lessen that damage and provide sanctuary. A few bad apples are to be expected, as is the continued plague of gun violence and violent crime.

    EU ring a bell?  All those countries have an open border agreement and remain countries...I don't see why US/Canada/Mexico can't open up ours and remain countries.  Or better yet, the entire Western Hemisphere.  Better still, the world. My birth is my passport, my heartbeat my visa...anything less would be uncivilized.

    Sh*t, even if you're right, maybe we'd all be better off without countries.  Countries make war, countries close borders, countries take away inalienable rights.

     

    Parent

    Actually, Kdog (2.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:26:45 PM EST
    A few bad apples are to be expected, as is the continued plague of gun violence and violent crime.

    That's very cavalier.

    Parent

    unlike dead (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by CST on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:30:10 PM EST
    kids in Palestine - those are just collateral damage.

    Parent
    Nice attempt to change the subject (1.67 / 3) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 08:22:57 PM EST
    but the illegal immigrant isn't attacking places where women and children are being kept and  where rockets are being launched at Mexico.

    Your analogy is as false as false can be. In fact, it is the worst I have ever seen.

    Parent

    You say cavalier... (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by kdog on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 08:45:36 AM EST
    I say realistic.  What's cavalier is f*cking with a hundreds of thousands of fine decent people as a way to deal with a couple thousand bad seeds.

    Parent
    Sounds like a song.... (none / 0) (#80)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:10:44 PM EST


    Parent
    Good ear... (none / 0) (#88)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:49:09 PM EST
    maybe we'll have evolved to no longer need countries, or tsars/presidents/kings, or even laws, in another couple thousand years.  Then we will have arrived as a species!

    If we don't extinct ourselves first.

    Parent

    More pandering politicians? (none / 0) (#127)
    by Reconstructionist on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 10:28:22 AM EST

    Link

    Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Rodham Clinton weighed in, too, though she misstated the role that cities play in deportation. Federal immigration authorities ask local jails to hold certain immigrants until they can pick them up for possible deportation.

    In an interview on CNN, Clinton said, "What should be done is any city should listen to the Department of Homeland Security, which as I understand it, urged them to deport this man again after he got out of prison another time."

    "The city made a mistake not to deport someone that the federal government strongly felt should be deported," Clinton said.

    U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.) called for a review of detention policies.


    Parent

    Yes, it's pandering (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Zorba on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 12:30:31 PM EST
    If ICE had gotten off of their dead @sses and actually gotten a legal warrant for his arrest, San Francisco would have held him and turned him over to the Feds.
    As Peter G noted in his comment (#69), federal courts have found that municipalities have no obligation to detain people just on the unsupported ICE "detainer" request.
    ICE needs to go through the legal process, rather than throwing out these requests.  Let them go to court and get the proper warrants and authorizations.  What makes ICE think that they can ignore the US Constitution and Bill of Rights?

    Parent
    Pardon me if my stomach clenches (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    at the suggestion to "listen to the Department of Homeland Security."

    Parent
    Clinton & Boxer.... (none / 0) (#172)
    by kdog on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 02:16:57 PM EST
    should listen to the poor victim's uncle..."this isn't about immigration".  

    There's a guy who by all rights should be losing his mind, yet he's more level-headed than the people we elect and pay to be level-headed for us.

    Parent

    Bill Cosby (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 10:04:49 AM EST
    in the coverage of this I heard that the case the testimony now making the rounds is from was "dismissed with prejudice".

    Or something like that.

    What does this mean exactly?

    In this particular case, it means (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Peter G on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 12:57:41 PM EST
    that the parties reached a full settlement of the plaintiff's claims against Cosby, and as part of that deal she agreed to drop the lawsuit and not revive it. And then the judge approved that feature of the settlement by closing the case permanently.

    Parent
    Means they can't file another claim (none / 0) (#45)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 10:23:55 AM EST
    For the same civil case.

    Within legal civil procedure, prejudice is a loss or injury, and refers specifically to a formal determination against a claimed legal right or cause of action.[2] Thus, in a civil case, dismissal without prejudice is a dismissal that allows for re-filing of the case in the future. The present action is dismissed but the possibility remains open that the plaintiff may file another suit on the same claim. The inverse phrase is dismissal with prejudice, in which the plaintiff is barred from filing another case on the same claim. Dismissal with prejudice is a final judgment and the case becomes res judicata on the claims that were or could have been brought in it; dismissal without prejudice is not.

    Res judicata

    In the case of res judicata, the matter cannot be raised again, either in the same court or in a different court. A court will use res judicata to deny reconsideration of a matter.



    Parent
    Bill "Dorian Gray" Crosby (none / 0) (#85)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:36:18 PM EST
    No matter how cynical I get, it isn't enough.

    Parent
    Cosby (none / 0) (#86)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:36:42 PM EST


    Parent
    The Documents Bill Cosby Didn't Want (none / 0) (#118)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 12:33:44 AM EST
    you to read:  It's interesting to see Cosby's attorney, O'Connor, playing very tight defense. (I'm using a sports metaphor since Cosby was a Phys-ed major, as we all learned in those comedy albums we listened to as children.)

    All the Cosby dox obtained by Deadspin are here.

    Parent

    The hits just keep coming (none / 0) (#43)
    by CST on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 10:15:28 AM EST
    "The Obama administration on Tuesday will announce an initiative to help low- and middle-income Americans gain access to solar energy, part of a series of steps President Obama is taking to tackle climate change, according to administration officials."

    IMO, every public housing development in the country should be equipped with solar panels.

    Link

    Not such a lame duck.

    First measures: (none / 0) (#50)
    by Palli on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 11:14:31 AM EST
    Every new building should be
    • built with solar collectors if conditions of site allow it
    • all roofing material should be white or light grey
    • parking lot footage laid in impermeable material should be less than 20% of parking space required by municipal planning laws
    Good beginning to common

    Parent
    Hear hear (none / 0) (#56)
    by CST on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 01:05:43 PM EST
    not just new buildings though.

    Parent
    A quicker way to unload the grid would be (none / 0) (#91)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:03:28 PM EST
    to give everyone LED bulbs.  If you haven't priced them lately, Philips 60W equivalent "loop" bulbs are now down to 3 for $11.  Some of you may remember that only a few years ago LED bulbs were being peddled for $30-$50 apiece.  The latest generation of CREE vented plastic edison base 60W bulb lookalikes are $4-$5 apiece.  The CREE bulbs no longer have the heavy ceramic base of last year's generation.  They weigh little more than the old tungsten filament units we all grew up with and they barely get warm.  The heat dissipation is why previous generation LED bulbs were built on heavy ceramic housings.

    I'm replacing even compact fluorescent bulbs with LED bulbs.  After years of enduring the slow fade in of fluorescents, it's a thrill to see lamps turn on immediately.  Plus I like not worrying about the end-of-life burnout drama that frequently happens to compact fluorescents.

    At today's new price point, LED bulbs will pay for themselves quickly.  "60W" LED bulbs use about 9.5 Watts.  So for all y'all who held back because the economics didn't really add up to the advertising, waiting was the right choice.  LED bulbs may drop a bit from here, but it won't be far and at today's prices, they pay for themselves.  

    The same will happen to solar electricity gear.  Where I live, in the northern U.S., the cost/benefit isn't there yet.  But that day will come.

    Parent

    SC Confederate Flag Bill (none / 0) (#46)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 10:42:55 AM EST
    moves to the House this afternoon. The Senate voted 36-3 this morning to take it down.

    It would take a 60% vote in the House to add any amendments. It will be attempted, but unlikely to be successful. It needs a 2/3rds vote for the bill to pass which should happen easily.

    There will be more no votes than there were in the Senate but taking it down should still pass before the weekend by a vote in the area of 93-12 with 15 or so not voting.

    Someone has stacked the calendar (none / 0) (#126)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 09:49:06 AM EST
    in the House with possible amendments today. This is an attempt to kill the bill by not passing the Senate version.

    Looks like it was done by S.C. Rep. Mike Pitts who has introduced between 26 and 28 amendments. No word as to whether anyone else has added to the list.

    They range in silliness from flying the US flag upside down to the one amendment that has some support but probably not the 60% needed.  That one is to replace the current stars and bars flag with another confederate era flag, "The Bonnie Blue".  That makes little sense as it was originally the flag of West Florida when they split from Spain. (now west Florida, Louisiana, and parts of Alabama and Mississippi)

    Parent

    So do (none / 0) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 10:46:09 AM EST
    you see why I have had my doubts that this is going to go through? And I have said when it comes down I will believe it?

    Parent
    Looks like possibly (none / 0) (#136)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:06:59 AM EST
    33 amendments total. At least 25 of those have been withdrawn to assist in speeding up the process. 1st of Pitts amendments is voted down. He's now on to his 2nd that he wouldn't withdraw.

    Pitts may think like Lee Bright but he doesn't speak like Bright. Pitts will put you to sleep. He's currently talking about mules and outhouses.

    Parent

    Given that he seems to be as (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:27:10 AM EST
    stubborn as one, and as crazy as the rats that frequent the other, he might as well talk about something he's familiar with, right?

    Parent
    His 2nd Amendement loses 90-27 (none / 0) (#148)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:57:32 AM EST
    Now he's onto his 3rd. This one is about planting yellow jasmine on the site. He likes to hear himself talk for 20 minutes. He's talking about the sweet smell of jasmine and honeysuckle and listening to mockingbirds when he was a child.

    Parent
    The yellow jasmine amendment loses 92-23 (none / 0) (#151)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 12:18:06 PM EST
    This is what you would call a SC House version of a filibuster. Next up:

    Pitts Amendment 30 - A bronze flag version of a volunteer African American regiment that fought for the south to replace the current confederate flag.

    Parent

    Bronze flag loses 81-36 (none / 0) (#167)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 01:48:20 PM EST
    Pitts has added about another 20 amendments to the list for a total of 54. They have swept away about 30 thus far.

    Parent
    Governor Haley met with the GOP House members (none / 0) (#180)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 03:13:03 PM EST
    during a recess. My guess is to tell them to grow up and vote. Of course that would have really been directed at just one person... Rep. Pitts.

    Parent
    Pitts just had 15 amendments tossed (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 04:56:40 PM EST
    for violating House rules...so he's added 6 more to the list. There are now 60 total and by my count 59 have been put forward by Rep Pitts. Three of the new six were tossed right away for also violating House rules. Looks like even the Republican leaders in the House have had their fill of Pitts today.

    The amendment to put the confederate flag up for a vote in the next election was defeated 71-48. That was likely his best shot of the bunch.

    Parent

    61 Amendments have now come and gone (none / 0) (#193)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 05:45:13 PM EST
    Even Pitts appears to be losing steam. More keep popping up though. Looks like a total of 71 now with 10 remaining.

    Pitts finally seeing the writing on the wall drops a line "now I know what Lee felt like at Appomattox".

    Parent

    Amendment 63 goes down (none / 0) (#194)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 05:54:23 PM EST
    That would have flown the Confederate flag one day a year on Confederate Memorial Day. It was tossed 76-34.

    That would have cost me my bet with Scott had it been approved.

    Now into humor zone... Amendment 64 by Rep. Corley (R) to replace Confederate flag with a white flag to represent how GOP lawmakers have given up. Tabled by voice vote.

    No debate anymore. Just another amendment put up and another amendment voted down. They are dropping faster than they can write new ones...but they are still trying to find one that will stall the outcome..

    Parent

    Well, (none / 0) (#199)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 06:32:16 PM EST
    SC can't do anything with dignity it would seem. The whole state still looks like it is populated by a bunch of morons. But then people like Pitts are drawing fans from the disgruntled neoconfederates. I don't know whether to laugh or cry that these are the people that are elected in SC but I should know. It's the same state that sent Strom Thurmond to the senate for decades.

    Parent
    Ga6thDem (none / 0) (#202)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 07:11:49 PM EST
    They are at 66 up and 66 down. Not sure how much longer this will last. They are in recess but haven't adjourned for the day. I would be shocked if they get to the actual vote on the flag tonight. But I have 8 miles to run, so hopefully I'll return to see a vote on the meaningful bill...The bill to take it down.

    Parent
    Trouble in Columbia, SC (none / 0) (#203)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 10:01:33 PM EST
    There is an amendment that shouldn't be an amendment that has support. It has nothing to do with taking down the flag but rather funding for the museum where the flag will reside.

    It's very likely to pass because most are in agreement that it needs to be done. Problem is, an amendment leaves the flag flying because the Senate has adjourned and gone home for the summer.

    Emotions are on edge now. They'll need a compromise to take up the amendment as a separate bill but don't believe that can be done in special session.

    No way this wraps up tonight without a wink wink nod nod agreement.

    Parent

    It's official - It's coming down. (5.00 / 2) (#207)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 09, 2015 at 12:16:40 AM EST
    It took them 15 hours but they finally managed to vote on a clean bill.

    The flag bill is headed to Gov Haley for her signature. The House votes to take it down by a vote of 94-20.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#205)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:16:05 PM EST
    the backer of the amendment, Rep Rick Quinn is asking his colleagues to vote against his amendment so the vote on taking down the flag can move forward. He now supports a separate resolution for the problem rather than an amendment to the bill.

    Congratulations to Rep Quinn for looking at the greater good tonight when museum funding can wait for another day.

    Amendment is defeated and they pass a resolution to look into funding later.

    Parent

    All amendments have failed (none / 0) (#206)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 09, 2015 at 12:01:41 AM EST
    Second of three votes needed to pass the bill to take down the flag passes easily 93-7.
    They adjourn the Wednesday session at 12:58am Thursday morning and return for the Thursday session at 1:00am in 2 minutes.

    Parent
    His first amendment lost 90-26. (none / 0) (#140)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:21:37 AM EST
    His current amendment is to take the flag off the poll and put it into a bronze and glass case in the same spot. This also will fail. The vote on this one should give a good feel as to how the final vote on the flag will be.

    Parent
    Because (none / 0) (#82)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:19:16 PM EST
    conservatives always say look over there at the boogey man and do not pay attention to my policies. And they always blame someone else for their own failures.

    Conservatives (none / 0) (#89)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:52:13 PM EST
    are in full meltdown mode today posting all kinds of hoaxes.


    Sh*t jondee... (none / 0) (#90)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 03:56:20 PM EST
    in his confession, he said it was an accidental discharge of the firearm.  Wouldn't even be prosecuted as a crime in some jurisdictions...it would be called a tragic accident.

    But since it's a skell of a darker shade with a record, it's Homicidal Maniac Wetbacks Week on Fox. Get your Two Minutes Hate on, don't forget to spittle and scream at your telescreen.

    Who's running Greece? (none / 0) (#93)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:09:51 PM EST
    Greece shows up at the emergency bailout meeting today with no plan other than to ask for more cash.

    The banks, which were supposed to open today remain closed. Rumors abound that the Greek Prime Minister never expected the vote to go his way over the weekend and currently has no plan on how to fix the damage he's done.

    With the next meeting not scheduled until next Monday, it's unlikely banks will open at all this week.


    What damage has the Greek prime minister done? (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 05:34:54 AM EST
    Alex Tsipras has only been in office since late January, whereas this disaster has been years in the making. And to be frank, the lenders played a huge role in creating this fiasco, and are every bit as much to blame here as the spenders. Tsipras inherited this crisis, and was elected because eight years of austerity under the prior acquiescent regime has turned Greece from overextended debtor nation into an economic basket case. Paul Krugman has written extensively about this issue. Read him.

    Parent
    Yes, read Krugman (5.00 / 3) (#156)
    by NYShooter on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 12:50:16 PM EST
    And you'll find the reality of the Greek tragedy is nothing at all like The Troika, and its hand maiden, The Media, are portraying it to be:

    I know much of this has already been stated, but, it needs repeating.

    Some recent Krugman articles: LINK 1 ....LINK2 ........ LINK3
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now, on a personal note, I'm just stunned at the brazen hypocrisy displayed by the Germans in leading the public humiliation of this historic country, a "fellow" member of the E.U, and a valuable, and critical, member of NATO. (And, not to mention, Greece had been the victim of some of the most unspeakable war crimes of WW2. Those crimes were committed by the very country leading the inhumane assault on Greece's citizens today: its very young, its very old, its very sickly, and its very dignity as a nation. And, a nation that was in the forefront of forging the agreement forgiving so much of Germany's blood-soaked debt.

    Having itself been the recipient of massive aid & debt forgiveness (percentage-wise greater than what tiny Greece needs now) after having lost the two greatest Wars in history, wars Germany started and which resulted in tens of millions of deaths)  the international community, wisely, looked to the future, and the "greater good," and did the right thing.

    But, that was then, and this is now. Somehow, having been the belligerent aggressor, and the primary cause of so many millions of deaths, military & civilian, could be forgiven financially in the name of democratic unity & cooperation, for the benefit of all. Yet, asking today's elite, primarily the International Bankster Junta, to do its part in repairing the incalculable damage it itself caused in the worldwide financial collapse of 2008 is a solution not even under consideration.

    Deaths are forgivable; relief for debts substantially caused by the Creditors? Go kill yourself.

    Parent

    Eduardo Porter, NYT Business (5.00 / 2) (#184)
    by KeysDan on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 03:55:52 PM EST
    columnist (July 8) explains that the 20th century offers a rich road map of policy failures and successes addressing sovereign debt crises.  The underlying historical pattern is that major debt overhangs are only solved after deep write downs of debt's face values..  And, no one should understand this better than Germany, having been the beneficiary in an arrangement in 1953.  

    Germany and its allies justify their position on the "moral hazard" argument--if Greece were offered an easy way out, what would prevent it from living he high life on other people's money, once again. And, would that become a model for say, Portugal.  But, the Greek economy is hardly likely to become a role model, having contracted its economy in accord with creditors.   And, as if there have been no consequences.  A high unemployment rate (25 %), pensioners are penniless, banks are closed, their is political and economic instability.  

    It would appear that Germany has its "moral hazard" argument backward--covering lenders losses will encourage them to make bad loans again.  Consequences for Greece.  None for the lenders.  Again, punish the predatory borrowers.  Protect the predatory lenders.

    Parent

    Germany has misled the troika thus far (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by christinep on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:16:02 PM EST
    in overplaying its hand.  By acting as "accountants in chief," they have put aside their expected role as leaders ... and, imo, the only thing that the creditors here have succeeded in doing is raising doubts about the validity of the euro itself and the viability of an arrangement that seems to smack of a Bismarck revival in the hands of Merkel.  

    By appearing to focus narrowly on a currency tally rather than a European UNION, they have largely succeeded in transforming Greece into the underdog that many are either openly or quietly backing in this dispute.  Good.  

    BTW, as Zorba mentioned the other day, the reminder of the NATO presence in Greece has been noted yesterday ... by Hillary Clinton. Secretary Clinton remarked on the significance of the NATO arrangement, as well as referenced the significance of the Greek American community, in urging European leaders to find a way to resolve the economic crisis and to find a way to help Greece stay in the EU.  

    Parent

    Thank you, Shooter (none / 0) (#166)
    by Zorba on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 01:43:17 PM EST
    I absolutely agree.

    Parent
    After you Alphonse, (none / 0) (#102)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:40:03 PM EST
    no, you first, my dear Gaston---seems to be the conversation.   Alex Tspiras and the brand new Finance Minister, Euclid Tsakalotos, probably want to see what can be gotten rather than make a pledge at the outset.  

     Greece should receive some bridge financing for six months until a proposal can be worked out among all parties.  Presenting a proposal for financial, political and ideologic review while banks are closed does not seem to offer a lot of promise. Some cooling down and cool heads would be a good thing, at this point--given the stakes.

    Parent

    Putting your hand out (none / 0) (#106)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 05:07:52 PM EST
    when all you've done lately is put your hand out is worth a try I guess. But not too many are willing to throw good money after bad and that's what Greece is hoping for from the EU right now.


    Parent
    Oy (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by sj on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:05:58 AM EST
    Apparently you would prefer that the beatings continue...

    Parent
    It's not a beating (3.50 / 2) (#146)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:36:21 AM EST
    There comes a time when people have to get their act together. You can't keep giving a grown child money because they say they are broke. They have to prove they have a clue.

    btw, oy is another overused silly word here at TL.

    Parent

    The older I get (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 12:07:05 PM EST
    the more the word "oy" feels like the most appropriate response to any number of disconcerting events..

     

    Parent

    But how is taking it away from those (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 12:15:02 PM EST
    who can least afford it and are least responsible for Greece's economic condition an appropriate course of action?

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 12:23:42 PM EST
    and that is the decision Greece has to make. How do we ask for loans, while offering acceptable provisions to pay it back, without bleeding those that are already hurting the most.

    And that's why the decision makers in Greece better get their act together and offer a reasonable plan other than...give me more money.

    Parent

    I'm sticking with Oy (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by sj on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 12:57:25 PM EST


    Parent
    I don't know (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by sj on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 01:52:48 PM EST
    maybe the EU could do for Greece what the rest of the world did for Germany post WWII.

    Debt forgiveness. How the freak did Merkle get so powerful is what I want to know.

    Parent

    Thomas Piketty (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Zorba on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 02:32:53 PM EST
    is, basically, furious at Germany.

    In a blistering interview with the German newspaper Die Zeit, Piketty blasts Germany and it's history of repayment of debt over the years, and it's attitudes toward its fellow EU neighbor, Greece.  First, a little background of Thomas Piketty is in order for those that aren't familiar with him, and his background...

    Since his successful book, "Capital in the Twenty-First Century," the Frenchman Thomas Piketty has been considered one of the most influential economists in the world. His argument for the redistribution of income and wealth launched a worldwide discussion. In a interview with George Blume of DIE ZEIT, he gives his clear opinions on the European debt debate.

    In brief, Piketty tells the interviewer in no uncertain terms that Germany never repaid their loans; yet hold others to a higher standard of responsibility.

    ZEIT: But shouldn't they repay their debts?
    Piketty: My book recounts the history of income and wealth, including that of nations. What struck me while I was writing is that Germany is really the single best example of a country that, throughout its history, has never repaid its external debt. Neither after the First nor the Second World War. However, it has frequently made other nations pay up, such as after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, when it demanded massive reparations from France and indeed received them. The French state suffered for decades under this debt. The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.

    Read the rest of the article here.

    Parent

    Here's a quote from (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 02:44:07 PM EST
    Ed Walker, over at emptywheel, that pretty much sums up what's at work here:

    But in neoliberal land, the debtor is required to pay. If the nation has to sell its assets, its ports, water supplies, gas companies, whatever, so be it. If the people are condemned to misery for years, with unemployment among the young at 50%, so be it. If the government has to be replaced with one acceptable to the lenders, so be it. Democracy and the individual lives must be sacrificed to the demands of the creditors.

    If the debtor still cannot pay, then the money has to come from taxpayers in other countries, or so the neoliberals tell them. There are no circumstances in which the creditors can lose money in a neoliberal society.

    [...]

    The worst part of this is that this punitive attitude towards debtors is everywhere. The comment sections and the twitter are full of people fulminating about how they pay their debts, so why doesn't Greece? Here's one from ‏@JustinWolfers who ought to know better.

       Hey @WellsFargo, what gives? This morning my family voted 60-40 to stop making mortgage payments but you still haven't restructured our debt

    This is one of the milder forms of the morality about money that we see in every context of debtors who can't pay, whether it's homeowners with underwater mortgages, students with heavy debt, or citizens of Ferguson going to jail because they can't pay ridiculous traffic fines. The notion that not paying debts is a Sin pervades the public discourse.


    Parent
    Taxes on the rich? (none / 0) (#185)
    by Steve13209 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 04:05:34 PM EST
    One of the proposals was shot down by the Troika because it involved raising taxes on the rich. Why should they have any say in how the budget is put into surplus?

    Parent
    How do the Greeks get their act together ... (5.00 / 2) (#160)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 01:16:47 PM EST
    ... with their economy in its eighth year of contraction, their unemployment rate just south of 25%, nearly one-third of their public workforce having already been shown the door, and their public health system has collapsed to the extent that the scourge of malaria is once again rearing its head?

    We need to realize here that Greece has only been a real democracy since 1974, when the military junta which ruled that country was shown the door in the wake of its disastrous attempt to annex Cyprus, which prompted a Turkish invasion of that island nation and brought Greece to the brink of war with its much more powerful neighbor. Before that, the country had been a monarchy under the firm grip of various strongmen, from the time it first achieved its independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1830.

    These sorts of banal clichés you're offering about acts needing to be gotten together, strongly intimate that you have bought the Troika's storyline, and really have little or no interest in learning what's actually happened here.

    You're apparently suggesting that Greece's financiers are somehow entirely innocent victims here, and weren't at all complicit in the run-up to this present crisis and impasse for having irresponsibly encouraged the Greek government to borrow and spend at unsustainable rates in the first place.

    I'll use your own analogy here to explain. Suppose that you've failed to educate your child to respect the true value of fiscal self-discipline, and further train him how to properly budget and handle money. Instead, you've indulged his every whim and desire throughout his adolescence and college years -- as well as your own, as far as he can tell.

    Thus, this young man has entered the real world with little or no concept and appreciation of the fact that capacity does have its limits. Therefore, aren't your own failures as a parent in that respect at least partially to blame here, when that child fails to rein in his profligate abuse of credit cards as a young adult and proceeds to get himself in real trouble?

    "Oy" is an entirely apt reaction to what you've written and suggested here. Rather than dismissing the present crisis from any further need for your consideration, by blithely telling the Greek people that they need to get a clue, perhaps you might first heed your own advice.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Donald it appears (1.00 / 1) (#165)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 01:43:15 PM EST
    the leaders of Greece disagree with you as they are now saying the country is aiming to finance itself within three years while remaining a part of the EU.

    ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- Greece requested a new three-year rescue program from its European partners on Wednesday and rushed to complete a detailed plan of economic reforms in time to avoid the country's descent into financial chaos.

    With the banking system teetering on the edge of collapse, the government sought to reassure its European creditors that it would enact tax and pension reforms quickly in exchange for loans from Europe's bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism.

    In its formal request to tap the fund, the Greek government said it would "immediately implement a set of measures as early as the beginning of next week."

    That's how grownups work. Of course the devils are in the details which will be voted on Sunday by all members of the the EU.

    Parent

    Then why did you criticize PM Tsipras earlier? (5.00 / 3) (#188)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 04:39:46 PM EST
    You're trying to move the goal posts here.

    What's been happening in the last 24 hours is hopefully a sign that The Troika itself will perhaps finally pull back from the brink and become more reasonable, given that the Greek people essentially called their bluff with that referendum, by which they expressed a willingness to leave the Eurozone and go their own separate way, if push came to shove.

    That's all the Greeks are really asking for here, reasonableness and and a clear understanding of their situation. German Chancellor Angela Merkel is the hardliner who's been standing foursquare in the way of any compromise and resolution, not Prime Minister Alex Tsipras. And as Sunday's vote clearly demonstrated, the Greek people have his back in this confrontation.

    Further, the financiers are deathly afraid that such hardening populist attitudes will spread to the citizens of much larger EU countries like Spain and Italy, which are facing similar problems with austerity, and whose defiance would likely prove much more problematic to Chancellor Merkel and the banksters.

    Greece is both the immediate catalyst and potential precursor to an unraveling of the Eurozone, which nobody really wants to see happen.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Simple (none / 0) (#189)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 04:48:26 PM EST
    Criticizing him yesterday was easy. He called a meeting of the EU to offer a new finance plan. He showed up at the meeting with no plan at all leaving everyone baffled. His inaction meant leaving Greek banks closed until at least next Monday.

    Parent
    oy (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by sj on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 05:27:44 PM EST
    That's all you've got for all your sneering?

    Parent
    Oy gevalt gefilte fish (none / 0) (#192)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 05:30:15 PM EST


    Parent
    I don't see how that wasn't a substantial (none / 0) (#195)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 06:02:42 PM EST
    Avoidance of all responsibility and accountability.

    Parent
    For that (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by sj on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 06:48:58 PM EST
    1. CG was condemning an entire nation. And his (CG's) mischaracterization of the Tsipra's position in order to put Greece in the worst possible light is ... positively Germanic.
    2. Tspiras is hardly responsible for creating the current state of affairs.
    3. WTF avoidance? Tsipras made a formal request for new aid while not humbly accepting the Troika's ridiculous demands. That stone has no. more. blood. Personally, I think he should have publicly put debt forgiveness on the table, instead of (I suspect) hoping the conversation would go there on its own.
    4. If you, MT,  think taking more from the poors is the way to go, just say so instead of voicing the mealy mouthed, supercilious and judgmental "avoidance of all responsibility and accountability" platitude.


    Parent
    Your reading comprehension was lacking (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 07:04:37 PM EST
    "Who's running Greece?" is far from condemning an entire nation.

    My attack is on the political leaders that stuck the citizens of Greece with another week of impending disaster after calling an emergency session to put forward a new plan and arriving with no plan.

    There is no defense for that.

    Parent

    Oy (none / 0) (#161)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 01:19:41 PM EST


    Parent
    So overused (none / 0) (#169)
    by sj on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 01:57:13 PM EST
    Oy (none / 0) (#161)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 12:19:41 PM MDT



    Parent
    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 02:04:06 PM EST


    Parent
    If you're interested in a good (5.00 / 3) (#141)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:23:37 AM EST
    summary of the situation in Greece, check out Gaius Publius' (very long) post at digby's place.

    Here's a portion:

    The Story in Greece

    The CNN-ready cover story on Greece is is a story of punishing helpers or helping punishers -- the audience can take the story either way, as it chooses. "Bad Greece" got itself in economic trouble and "good Europeans" -- led by German and other elites -- have offered a helping hand, but only if the Greek government makes painful adjustments, such as cutting pensions (their form of our Social Security) and privatizing much of their infrastructure, such as their airports and shipping facilities. Money, but with strings.

    The Greeks deserve this treatment because bad (profligate, lazy) people deserve to suffer when they fall. Welfare, when given to "the wrong people," should come with thorns; bailout money, when given to "the wrong people," should come with some pain, with strings.

    The actual story is that the forces of privatization on the "liberal left" in Europe have found a nation in a great deal of economic trouble, thanks in large part to looting from outside, and they're offering a "helping" hand in order to further loot the country via those privatizing strings. In the minds of the looters (we'll call them "neo-liberals" below) every government-owned operation (Athens airport, say) is a missed profit opportunity for someone rich enough to buy it, and the world would be better if everything were made private.

    But airports and other revenue opportunities don't privatize themselves; they have to be pried loose from government. Corruption will pry them loose, or friends on the inside. That's how the Abu Dhabi sovereign wealth fund and others got their hands on 75 years' worth of revenue from the Chicago parking meters. They had a "friend," Mayor Richard M. Daley, on the inside willing to sell it to them on the cheap.

    "Shock Doctrine"-type operations will do it also. As Naomi Klein documents in her book of the same name, the shock of Hurricane Katrina's devastation was the perfect opportunity to privatize (monetize) New Orleans' public schools.



    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#103)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:40:30 PM EST
    Tsipris expected the creditors to come back with their terms, since the Troika simply said NO to the Greek's last proposal.

    Parent
    Tsipras (none / 0) (#104)
    by Steve13209 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:42:13 PM EST


    Parent
    jondee, quit using the (none / 0) (#100)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:31:32 PM EST
    guy's nationality and skin color as an excuse for his actions.

    He did what he did.

    Jim, please give up (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 11:18:21 AM EST
    trying to foist a Mexican Willie Horton on your fellow terrified, xenophobic rednecks. Please.

    And while your at it, give up trying to convince people that your fellow union-busting conservatives give a damn about American workers.

    Parent

    Oh the Fools in My State (none / 0) (#101)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:33:34 PM EST
    Last words of man eaten by Alligator, 'Fock the Alligator'.  Never mind the sign and the people begging him not to jump in.

    Almost 200 years since someone in Texas was eaten by an alligator.  But fear not, the next day a dead alligator was on the dock and when they cut it open they found parts of the guy.

    I don't know why, but I think this is so funny.  If it was my brother those words would be on his tombstone.

    LINK

    Couldn't you have used... (none / 0) (#105)
    by sj on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 04:54:11 PM EST
    ... this link? It doesn't have a commercial on autorun.

    And heaven knows there are deaths/injuries that have made me laugh inappropriately -- I have to be honest about that. This isn't one of them, though. It's a nightmare come to life.

    Parent

    Funny... (none / 0) (#130)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 10:58:48 AM EST
    ...I actually searched for a different link because the Houston Chronicle is ad intensive.

    It's like the guy who died shooting fireworks off his chest.  Wonder if he said 'F the fireworks'.  And yes, he is a Texan.

    And this guy, died instantly after lighting fireworks from his head.  

    Parent

    Obama, from Yahoo (none / 0) (#108)
    by thomas rogan on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 07:18:41 PM EST
    Obama has said that supporting nationalist rebels has "always been a fantasy" because the opposition of "former doctors, farmers, pharmacists, and so forth" was fighting "a well-armed state backed by Russia, backed by Iran, [and] a battle-hardened Hezbollah."

    That original opposition was a bunch of moderates.  Now it's gone--all killed or emigrated.  Now the opposition is radicalized.  Whose fault is that?

    smash a window, save a life (none / 0) (#111)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jul 07, 2015 at 08:34:23 PM EST
    Groundbreaking Tennessee Law Lets Good Samaritans Save Dogs Trapped In Hot Cars

    NYSE, UNITED AIR, Wall Street Journal (none / 0) (#152)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 12:20:30 PM EST
    all hacked.. I'm sorry, experienced technical glitches at the same time.

    Uh huh.

    MSNBC, CNN nothing to see here.  Move along.  Back to Donald Trump..

    Glitches (none / 0) (#155)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 12:40:33 PM EST

    Mr Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: 'Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action'



    Parent
    The Death of the Hippies (none / 0) (#181)
    by jbindc on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 03:14:50 PM EST
    A photographer remembers how drugs destroyed the Telegraph Avenue scene

    Joe was part of it all, but he was also slightly outside of it, watching everything through the lens of his camera. Years later, when he was a highly regarded professional photographer--after he'd settled down and raised three children (including the comedian Andy Samberg)--he showed me some of his early portraits from Telegraph Avenue. They've been in my mind's eye ever since, a counterpoint to all the popular images of peace signs, daisy chains, and Aquarian circle dances. The reality Joe saw was very much like the one the Atlantic author described: hordes of kids who had been lured to California by utopian ideals and then settled into a life of sex, drugs, and lethargy.

    SNIP

    Even at the time, though, Joe says he was "too sarcastic" to fully buy into the radical agenda. "The average person on the avenue was almost completely ignorant politically," Joe says. "All they really cared about was drugs, drugs, drugs. They were nihilists and hedonists. They just supported anything that was against the establishment. There was no intellectual foundation. The spirit everyone had talked about--the feeling of love and new age and progressive politics--was dying a miserable death."
    that's not unlike "radical" Berkeley now (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 04:30:45 PM EST
    They were nihilists and hedonists. They just supported anything that was against the establishment. There was no intellectual foundation.

    there's still nihilism & anti-intellectualism galore among the self-styled anarchists (that is, the ones who are actually in Berkeley & not squatting in West Oakland houses taken from foreclosed-on black families)

    but forget hedonism anywhere in Berkeley, where a hardy strain of puritanism has only grown more infectious over the years & made the default attitude an anhedonic tight@ss scolding conformity

    at least from the perspective of this Oaklander

    Parent

    I'm still a hippie (5.00 / 4) (#197)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 06:07:16 PM EST
    Why should I change?  I can go to any city in the world, or to the Olympic Games for that matter, and see my personal influence on modern society.  Who gets to do that?  Most people who change the world do not improve it, but I did.

    Beyond that, I got to be a rock band roadie in San Francisco in the 'sixties, when the best music was being played.  The job was only available to hippies.

    Parent

    pfffffttt (4.00 / 3) (#183)
    by sj on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 03:28:49 PM EST


    Parent
    Exactly. (none / 0) (#196)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 06:03:18 PM EST
    Besides, I've always felt that the sunset of the Age of Aquarius coincided a little too closely with the dawn of the Disco Era for comfort.

    Parent
    Well, (none / 0) (#209)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 09, 2015 at 09:05:00 AM EST
    Since Joe, who is quoted, was, you know. A drug using hippie himself, I guess he can punch them.

    Drugs make you stupid.

    I wasn't referring to him (none / 0) (#210)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jul 09, 2015 at 09:07:50 AM EST


    Coral... (none / 0) (#212)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jul 09, 2015 at 09:29:52 AM EST
    ...payment will be made once Haley signs the bill.

    I will take a screenshot and post.

    Well played and a bet I am glad to lose, but still surprised, even yesterday I had my doubts.

    Monday News and Open Thread | 209 comments (209 topical)